Curse

Mystical · Feb 13, 2006, 08:23 AM // 08:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

I totally understand that someone thinks "I have three hours to play today, I don't want to waste my time with noobs, I want to win." Winning is the objective, yep. What I was thinking, though, was the guild-based concept of "raising the next generation" sort of thing. The "give me a try, what can it hurt?" Taking a chance may land a guild with a fantastic player from time to time, and I think that if the guild is focused on high-level competition, it's fair to say that next season's Master Player may be joining the game next week or next month, may be looking for a guild, may need a start. (Come on, it could happen!) There's only so much training arenas can give. So how does that potentially-exceptional player get in a good guild, and how does he/she gain the map and competition familiarity to excel? I think it's through experience, and that means having barriers to even getting into the matches is a shame. Understandable, but also limiting.

It sounds nice and really something I agree more should do. Would be great to find the next natural talent! The only problem is (and I mean no offence) is the casual PVEr come in and wants to give PvP a shot... once. You devot your matches to teaching and the player ignores your suggestions or just plain bitches about you correcting them.

Now, the people here having trouble getting into teams I would give them a shot. From the few I've read they're detecated to PvP moreso than others. I had this problem and know what it's like.

Juicey Shake · Feb 13, 2006, 11:01 AM // 11:01

jeremy wins.

I'll take an unranked player if I'm just doing some quick, stupid IWAY group or some crap, sure! However, that is to say only if you can find your shift key. If you whisper me saying,"Hi plz i am close r3 178 fame plz inv rly good plz," well, 1: learn2type. 2: uh-huh, you have 178 fame, and I'm r15 and I have 4 accounts full of sigils and full stacks of ectos.

But hey, if you can show at least a -shred- of intelligence through your typing / knowledge of the build you're requesting to run, I'm glad to take you! :].

of course I usually farm moreso with the intent of not even holding halls, so at most a 30 fame run at best, but still.

When I run a balanced group with intent to grab/hold halls, I like to take ranked players who I know can hold their build together / know the enviornment we'll be fighting in well

.

Alodarn · Feb 13, 2006, 12:10 PM // 12:10

In one way this is very similar to the situation in football (Soccer to you yanks - I'm English) The top teams dominate and are able to buy the best players, and carry on dominating.

However, I recently have discovered speedway, I don't know all the fine points, but each rider is given a ranking/seeding based upon how well they do. At the end of the season the teams buy/sell players but have to remain under a certain number of total points. The really valuable riders are the up and coming guys that havn't climbed the leaderboard and so are "cheep" points wise, but are actually pretty good.

What I'd suggest is quite simple actually a combination of :
no team can start with too much (or too little!) fame/rank.
And within this fairly wide bracket there would be a "mid point" that would result in a team starting "normal" however, a team that made up of lower ranked/famed players they would get a morale boost to start with, and conversely the teams near the upper limit would start with a morale penalty.

Sorta like handcapping in golf I guess, but based upon the whole team ...

tomcruisejr · Feb 13, 2006, 02:14 PM // 14:14

i think HA would be better if it runs ala-"PVE Arenas".

say ranked bracket system. people under the same bracket only fight against each other.

a) novice HA r0-r2
b) average HA r3-r5
c) experienced HA r6-r9
d) i-eat-fame-3x-a-day HA r9-rwhatever

no frustrations. no mismatches. skill (experience) level vs skill (experience) level. whatever build used. fame acquisition should be "grind"-y for every bracket (progression anyone?).

drawbacks: guild HA group cant take rank 1 guildmates to average HA if 6/8 are rank 5s. the twinkers (2nd accounters) of course.

with observer mode, new players will have ideas what build to run and how to run it successfully.

with this ala-"PVE Arena" system, one will gain fame not by "beating-rank-0-noobs-coz-i-r-rank-10" or "free fame" but by beating a team that gave a good match.

Cecil Barracks · Feb 13, 2006, 02:26 PM // 14:26

Wow, I'm so glad this topic got recognition! Even from people on ANet! The first comment on this topic said "Rant's don't go very far on these forums." and I presumed it dead after the first three or so responses. Only yesterday did I come back and see four pages. I've read some excellenet suggestions and I think that this problem could be fixed. The past few days have wielded the same results: denial because of rank.

For now I'm turned off from the HA and shall continue my Random Arenas...

To bad that doesn't give Fame.

art_ · Feb 13, 2006, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cecil Barracks

Wow, I'm so glad this topic got recognition! Even from people on ANet! The first comment on this topic said "Rant's don't go very far on these forums." and I presumed it dead after the first three or so responses. Only yesterday did I come back and see four pages. I've read some excellenet suggestions and I think that this problem could be fixed. The past few days have wielded the same results: denial because of rank.

For now I'm turned off from the HA and shall continue my Random Arenas...

To bad that doesn't give Fame.

Please, please, please don't devalue rank further by giving it out for RA where the team the get matched with has a far bigger influence on how many wins you get than player skill.

Its a pity you are turned off from HA because you can't get into ranked groups, but i think it sort of sums up the attitude of a lot of pve-ers. They do just expect to walk into winning teams and dont realise that is totally normal to lose *a lot* more than you win when you start pvp.

Cecil Barracks · Feb 13, 2006, 02:50 PM // 14:50

I can't even get into losing groups, that's what turned me off.

DC_Ross_Dark · Feb 13, 2006, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by calamitykell

That's such a cop-out. By you saying that, you say anybody who isn't rank3 or higher doesn't know the maps at all, and they're dead weight. That's a pretty retarded stance to take.

But it's true, not many people who are under rank 3 and also generaly under rank 6 know the layouts of the gold maps and even if they do it's funny watching teams that don't know what to do (caping altar at 8 mins).

Lord Iowerth · Feb 13, 2006, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Well, just thought i'd throw my 2c in ...

I agree with the OP that finding a good group without rank is more difficult than if you have a nice Deer/Wolf/Tiger to flash at someone, but not impossible.

I've decided to give up on finding good random groups, and to just make some friends that do HA frequently. I've played with them in other arenas (and PvE, in some cases) so they know me and where my skills are best used. This is the advantage most new HA players don't have, but anyone can (presumably

) make friends to help out.

Am I rank 3? Not yet! Do I know what to do on altar/relic/priest maps? You betcha, but only because i've seen them, and had some helpful hints from teammates explaining different things ... instead of "ZOMG, you don't know what to do? you are teh noob! Kick this guy!". It's the same sort of thing going on in the "Biggest Jerk" thread: alot of people have no patience to teach someone new, no matter their potential, forgetting that they themselves were new once and required the same help.

They are under the preconceived notion that by allowing new players into their group or giving build hints that they are undermining their chance to earn fame or win in HA ... what you are doing is alienating the people who could potentially be a great asset to you in the future.

An addendum: balanced team of friends yesterday, only 2 of which were rank 3, walked all over the rank 6+ team that rejected several of us only minutes earlier ... certainly not the norm, but it did feel good to trounce some elitist jerks for once

Kate Bloodspirit · Feb 13, 2006, 07:58 PM // 19:58

One of the things I don't see in this thread is that most new-commers are in a very similar position that the nowadays "elite" players were when they started.

And the difference between both situations is that new comers aren't going to the same processes, at least not those who I'd see posting in this thread.

When this game started, there was no rank, there was no builds, there was not anything but a bunch of people exploring Tyria and doing missions together and all that, those people started PvPing, exploring the Tombs of primaveral kings, they had the ground to experiment and be inquisitive about new combo's, strategies and other ideas.

Today, all we see is PvE coming guys, who lack basic knowledge of game mechanics, because they went to Tombs (new Heroe's) and saw a tiger and said, hey that's cool, I want one too. But instead of fighting their way there, they spent the whole day PMing the guy with the tiger, hoping to get into his group.

The biggest problem about rank segregation is not the r9+ saying no to the r9-, because r9+ is only a very small part of the population. The problem with rank segregation lays on the rank 0~2 players segregating themselves and not getting anything done at the end of the day.

generik · Feb 13, 2006, 08:48 PM // 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by art_

Please, please, please don't devalue rank further by giving it out for RA where the team the get matched with has a far bigger influence on how many wins you get than player skill.

Its a pity you are turned off from HA because you can't get into ranked groups, but i think it sort of sums up the attitude of a lot of pve-ers. They do just expect to walk into winning teams and dont realise that is totally normal to lose *a lot* more than you win when you start pvp.

Rank is ALREADY useless.

art_ · Feb 14, 2006, 03:17 AM // 03:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by generik

Rank is ALREADY useless.

No it isn't. Its usefulness may be limited, but it is most certainly better than nothing.

Mimi Miyagi · Feb 14, 2006, 06:48 AM // 06:48

Why should rank have any "usefulness"? It's just an emote. It doesn't tell a player's skill, only that he's managed to farm some fame, just like fissure armor doesn't automatically denote that player as some sort of ubergod.

Yes, my questions are rhetorical.

The players have turned out a gameplay reward into some sort of elitist badge.

Mimi Miyagi · Feb 14, 2006, 06:53 AM // 06:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kate Bloodspirit

The biggest problem about rank segregation is not the r9+ saying no to the r9-, because r9+ is only a very small part of the population. The problem with rank segregation lays on the rank 0~2 players segregating themselves and not getting anything done at the end of the day.

How are the rank 0-2 players segregating themselves? It's not through their actions that higher rank players refuse to play with them. It's simple elitism, plain and simple.

Lady Lozza · Feb 14, 2006, 06:58 AM // 06:58

IMHO I've discovered recently that rank means NOTHING. You can get a team through to HoH without having a ranked team. And you can fail miserably at the ghosts with a ranked team. More over (particularly in international districts) unranked players are far better behaved and more likely to be easy going.
I can say this because I've had some very nasty ranked experiences recently.
The worst was 2 days ago when playing IWAY with my guild we needed two extra players and we got a rank 6 warrior and a rank 9 ranger. I was initially apprehensive because the ranger wanted to go as martyr, my guildies and I thought, wth let's give it a go.
I play order necro for my guild. Like playing monk, it is a thankless job and you are heavily constrained by a severe lack of energy - that is until your team mates kill something, or get themselves killed.
We thought that we would have a good team, we had already been consistantly winning the majority of maps up till HoH that night and our two new recuits were well ranked. Logically our lovely fame farming should have continued.
Well it didn't. We didn't even get past the ghosts. Why? Well that rank 9 martyr ranger decided he was going to run into the middle of the pack and take out the rangers at the back.
Now for those who don't know much about IWAY, the order necro operates a little like a monk. I've been playing it more like a monk in recent times too because it has been working marvoulously well. So there the ranger is getting himself killed and I hurry in to heal him. I get backfire, diversion, and clumsiness cast on me by the mesmers. Now #3 isn't an issue, I don't play order necro on the offensive. #1 and #2 WAS and issue. If I cast things would go badly. So I do what I normally do. Not cast till the hexes wore off. With three members down the guildies on our team agree to suicide and start over.
So we die and get back to HA and the ranger starts flaming me. I'm a noob order apparently. I tell him I can cast when I'm hexed up like that. He kept flaming and I put him on ignore. He DEMANDED me to apam my emote, I refused. This was a guild team. He knew that when he joined and there was no way in hell I was going to satisfy the idiot. Meanwhile the rest of the team is asking him why he rushed in and why he didn't once use martyr after the warriors spammed that they were blind. He blamed the order. "If the order wasn't a rankless noob we would have been fine, we wouldn't have died and we'd have had a 10% bonus."
Now this incident has really marred my joy of pvp. I've got almost all my 200 fame from playing IWAY order necro. I'm not perfect, I can use all the help and tips that I get, but when it comes to playing the part I cartainly think that I'm far from a noob. Furthermore there were others in the group whose rank was below mine. I think perhaps what bothered me even more was that my guildies of higher rank left me to stand up for myself. This guy just kept flaming and flaming until he was kicked (on my request - I ACTUALLY HAD TO REQUEST that my guildy kick him) by the leader.
The funny thing is that we had much more fun and success with completly rankless pugs earlier in the evening. So having a rank 9 behaving like a complete a-hole severely marred my desired to ever visit the international district at HA again.

Ken Dei · Feb 14, 2006, 07:16 AM // 07:16

I made it through pages 1,2,3,5....I skipped 4

Some Blinding Flashes of the Obvious that some people in this thread refuse to acknowledge:
-It is a catch 22.
-It is elitism plain and simple.
-It's a stupid way to do things and/or behave.
-80% of the time, guilds aren't big enough to PvP, or not enough be be worthy of HoH. I know, I've gone through 22 guilds, 21 had inactivity issues, #22 were just jerks.
-Friends can be from all over, no guarentees they'll be on, or that 8 will be on.
-Though they don't say it, most have tried forming groups, but that's just a reverse, ranked generally won't touch the group.
-Rhetorical Question: Nowadays, which is more likely; someone is R2- because they can't PvP well, or they're R2- because no one lets them in a group that has a chance to win? (If you answered the former, you're either dense or elitist.)
-PvE has its vitues in PvP. It teaches you how to adapt in the first place...in fact, generally, the only reason new builds come about anymore is because a few creative (and ranked) PvEers modify a really good build they found in PvE for PvP. If the task were left to the Elitist PvPers, they'd use the same cookie-cutter builds forever.

And heres a mild suggestion: Provide a group bonus for how many lowly ranked players are in their groups. A really good incentive, like an extra 2%^ per R2- player, or more faction, or SOMETHING. Even an elitist can spot an incentive, and maybe, just maybe some R2- can get the training they need to get better.

Kate Bloodspirit · Feb 14, 2006, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

How are the rank 0-2 players segregating themselves? It's not through their actions that higher rank players refuse to play with them. It's simple elitism, plain and simple.

They segregate themselves because they avoid playing with each other.

And about elitism, what's wrong with it? People with rank fought they way there and if any right they have, is to play with whoever they want to play, should rank be used to decide yes or no, then let that be.

Instead of writing rants about rank and how meaningless it is, people should go out there and play the game. It is not in anyone but other than oneself, the ability to make a group and lead it or join a group and let be led.

Resources are infinite, forums, in game networking, observer mode. People don't have other excuse to develop themselves and be sucessfull but their own lazyness.

And regarding the rank segregation. I am going to quote 'Valor' in one of the posts he did on guild-hall.net forums talking about him getting pmed all the time for groups (When the times Lara Valor's team/Patient Relaxed People has won the battle in the hall of heroes was a very common message for all of ur to see)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valor

Your intention for pming asking for a group is clear and selfish. We win, and you would like a part of the action. I do not care to play with such people. Everyone in my guild is here because they were my friend first.

I will admit, I am an elitist. I am very picky about who I take into a group in tombs. Clearly I cannot tombs with every random player out there. Top guilds/tombs players are not here to serve anyone, we played our way to were we are, do not expect a free ride from anyone.

My stance on rank. I think I've used this example somewhere else as well... hmm. Well, basicly, Tiger Woods is the world’s best golfer. Why? Because he practices at the driving range everyday, I was told by my father that he hits at least 1000 balls a day. This same principle applies to all sports/games, anything really. If you do it more then the next guy, chances are you will be better then him. Not a full proof system, but as far as pugs go, this is all anyone has to go on. If you are truly as good as you think you are, make your own groups. That is how I earned 95% of all my fame (currently 13,300 something, and that statement is defiantly not an exaggeration). In summery I guess... It has let me down more then it has proved useful.

~peace

sun is in us · Feb 14, 2006, 09:47 PM // 21:47

So Far:

Rank was the stupidest (yes I said stupidest) addition to GWs ever implemented.

I have been here since BETA. It was not needed then; it was not needed upon release; it wasn't needed two months after release. It has been the foul mother of all the other "elitest" crap that goes on now....whether it be "only echo-nukers" in PVE or cookie cutter builds in PVP. The pyschology backfired. Instead of being something that showed an accomplishment, a carrot, it has simply used more as a stick. Give me scalps, give me Tokens, give me something else that shows you (may) have more experience in PVP, but that something should not be a bar to new players entering HA.

The stupid emote has changed the mindset of the player base (for no good reason) and has made the game both less interesting and less fun to play for many newer people.

Instead of creating something to mark a "distinction", it has instead overwhelmingly reinforced groupthink/lemming behaviour. People just look for an excuse now to be like everybody else. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

May have been good on paper.....it bites upon execution. Just my opinion. You don't like.....I have an emote I'll flash you with one hand.

Mimi Miyagi · Feb 14, 2006, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kate Bloodspirit

They segregate themselves because they avoid playing with each other.

Hmmm...must be why I was able to get into plenty of unranked PUGs the past weekend.

Some people probably do, but not all, and I'd guess not the majority either. Plenty of unranked PUGs happening all the time. The more common segregation is amongst those with rank versus those without.

Quote:

And about elitism, what's wrong with it? People with rank fought they way there and if any right they have, is to play with whoever they want to play, should rank be used to decide yes or no, then let that be.

If you don't understand the problems with that attitude, then it's pointless for me to explain it - you either get it or you don't. You have choosen to ethically see no problem with it, and that's your decision to make. When you're at your next Klan rally, tell Bubba I said sorry that I won't myself be making it this week.

Quote:

Instead of writing rants about rank and how meaningless it is, people should go out there and play the game. It is not in anyone but other than oneself, the ability to make a group and lead it or join a group and let be led.

Then why are you here? Shouldn't you be flashing your emotes in district 1 of HA? Bashing n00b unranked IWAY groups in Broken Tower?

Quote:

Resources are infinite, forums, in game networking, observer mode. People don't have other excuse to develop themselves and be sucessfull but their own lazyness.

Oh, so it's THEIR fault they can't play with better players to learn how to be better themselves, gotcha. Whew, I thought it was the whole segregation thing again. Stupid lazy players, GET OFF YOUR ASS!

Quote:

And regarding the rank segregation. I am going to quote 'Valor' in one of the posts he did on guild-hall.net forums talking about him getting pmed all the time for groups (When the times Lara Valor's team/Patient Relaxed People has won the battle in the hall of heroes was a very common message for all of ur to see)

(blah blah blah)

~peace

Such an enlightening and very forward thinking post! You're a brave new man of the 17th century!

I also just LOVE the ironic name of that person's guild - patient relaxed people INDEED! Valor too! It's like a double date with Irony!

Kate Bloodspirit · Feb 14, 2006, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

Hmmm...must be why I was able to get into plenty of unranked PUGs the past weekend.

Read my previous posts, I said the people that post in this thread, specifically those who bash the rank system because they can't get into higher ranked groups.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

Some people probably do, but not all, and I'd guess not the majority either. Plenty of unranked PUGs happening all the time. The more common segregation is amongst those with rank versus those without.

At least the one segregation people like to point out and make posts about.

Quote:

If you don't understand the problems with that attitude, then it's pointless for me to explain it - you either get it or you don't. You have choosen to ethically see no problem with it, and that's your decision to make. When you're at your next Klan rally, tell Bubba I said sorry that I won't myself be making it this week.

I posted because I see people posting rants about rank, specifically targeted to ranked players. And people looking for solutions to the problem. And yet again, I see a lot of solutions, I see posts everywhere with builds and detailed information of how to play them. Tips and recommendations given by experienced players who had to figure all the details out themselves. Strats and multiple, if not inmense amount of information about game mechanics. Yet again I see all the people complaining because they keep asking, that thing the most ranked players cannot or are not willing to give. A spot in a team of 8, which is usually filled with friends, people they have gone a long path with and whom they are not willing to leave behind.

Quote:

Then why are you here? Shouldn't you be flashing your emotes in district 1 of HA? Bashing n00b unranked IWAY groups in Broken Tower?

I am here to post my point of view, which in a way is close-minded and selfish from your point of view. From mine it is about integrity, I play for the joy of the people I play with. To celebrate their company and honor our long paths together, regardless how old fashioned that sounds, that's how I feel and nothing can change that.

I don't flash my emote in district 1 because there's really no reason why I should or would. And how funny you mention my favorite map, but no, I don't bash on r00b unranked IWAY groups in Broken Tower, in fact, I don't bash on anyone, at all.

The reason I am here, is to give what I can actually give, information, product of my little, yet again knowledge. I could discuss my understanding of game mechanics, strats or builds with anyone anytime.

Quote:

Oh, so it's THEIR fault they can't play with better players to learn how to be better themselves, gotcha. Whew, I thought it was the whole segregation thing again. Stupid lazy players, GET OFF YOUR ASS!

No, it's not their fault. It is the higher ranked people's fault, as I said before, because they are being asked the only thing they can't and are not willing to give. Unfair? I don't think so. Ranked players are not here to serve anyone.

Quote:

Such an enlightening and very forward thinking post! You're a brave new man of the 17th century!

Save your sarcasm please.

Quote:

I also just LOVE the ironic name of that person's guild - patient relaxed people INDEED! Valor too! It's like a double date with Irony!

If you knew them personally, you'd know they are very patient and relaxed indeed, no ironies at all. And if you knew Valor, you'd know he's in fact a very brave player. So please don't talk about people you don't know.

Now back to the topic.You have to realize that each day it becomes harder and harder for everyone to gain rank. This is because of the closed nature of the HA's system itself. One team can only be holding halls at a time and it is by infortune, more than by inability to win that most parties go back to district. Even high ranked groups lose in Underworld you know?